《失物之书》封面演化史及其争议
Posted on 九月 23, 2009 | Category: 艺术
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========================（ 谢谢注意~）==========================
《失物之书》大陆版封面及截图：
- 《失物之书》封面
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- 《失物之书》封面
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- 《失物之书》截图
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- 《失物之书》截图
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- 《失物之书》截图
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- 《失物之书》截图
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- 《失物之书》截图
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- 《失物之书》截图
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- 《失物之书》大陆版封面
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- 《失物之书》成书图
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- 台版《失物之书》最终封面
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- 失物之书作废封面稿
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- 失物之书作废封面稿
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- 《我烧了大文豪的家》
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- 台版《失物之书》封面
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- 《The book of lost things》
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- 《The book of lost things》
友雅个人小站：（有点意思，推荐下）
www.youyayouya.com
友雅博客：（友雅平时的作品其实很简拙，我挺喜欢）
http://youya10.blogbus.com/
========================（ 注意!）==========================
以下是台湾《失物之书》编辑写的回顾。发在台湾博客站“博客来”上，原文繁体，我转了。后面的红字是原搏站版主锁了原文（禁止回复）后所加，看来回帖影响到了出版社。呵呵。因为原文先是被锁，后来貌似被删除了。（不确定，因为大陆实行网络封锁，那个台湾博客站在大陆貌似打不开，我用的是google快照查看后转译成简体的，图片部分无法查看，我用google搜索只能找到原文所提的几个修改版中的一两个，将就着看吧。）（by 【你们的】流明）
========================（ 谢谢注意~）==========================
《失物之书》封面演化史
文／小熊
行销大人告诉我，要写篇《失物之书》封面演化史。于是我抛开那位就要给老公打得鼻青脸肿的某小姐（详情请见麦田八月新书《伤痕累累》……），钻进我的电脑资料夹与信件黑洞，从数百封信件里挖出那些已经打包的档案。
第一次看到这么多封面。
为了一本书。
看看日期，那是春假即将到来的四月初。
「春假」很让人期待吧？对我而言，这类连假却常与「拚命奔跑赶进度」连在一起。连假＝印刷厂不开工、连假＝仓库不收书、连假＝书籍要赶在连假前入库上市。这样一连串赶下来，有时真会要人命。
而且，那时还有一块《小岛》等着要送厂呢。
早预约了永真到公司来开会讨论《失物之书》的文宣与封面设计。第一次我赶不及从排版美编家回公司。延期再开，仍给《小岛》卡在印刷厂动弹不得。只好请维特祖帮忙开会。
等我从海岛漂回来，办公室内早已刮起永真旋风。听说是杰尼斯与型男综合体……
＊＊＊
这是首次与永真合作。向来只闻其名，仅在一月的某杂志上看到所谓的年度封面设计风云人物；左页是较为熟悉的小白，右页即是永真。
我对美编总有股莫名焦虑与害怕。焦虑自己会惹对方生气，害怕对方可能拍桌说不做了。
结果，第一次收到封面提案，竟然就来了四个。
（欧巴桑性格立即出现：买一送四？？？）（虽然以前也给Mirr这样宠过。）
pic 1-1
好熟悉的画面。但眼拙的我，其实看了好多次，才发觉小男孩后面是皮箱，不是车子！
这是，中央车站版？
pic 1-2
或许是故事带点惊悚气氛，这个封面好可怕喔，好像有什么东西会从黑黑的地方跑出来……
pic 1-3
这款也好眼熟。独步同事曰：「土屋隆夫之童年版？」
pic 1-4
嗯……好像友社某本英美小说喔……
于是，回信又请永真修改。心中忐忑不已……
这次又来了三款！
Pic 2-1
很喜欢门的意象，可是色彩太黯淡，不太容易让人亲近呢。
Pic 2-2
蓝天白云，的确带有疗伤系效果……可是这风景似乎太普遍了……
Pic 2-3
或许是我一直强调的森林意象。这款出现森林，色调诡谲（其实是我可以接受的颜色）。可惜太有《芳香的祕教》色彩……
应该要继续调整。可看着满桌封面，我开始恐慌。这些还不是我要的，但是「做人不要太过分啊，都已经七款了……」心中的小矮人这么喊着。
几乎将半层楼同事全请来。听过故事的、没听过故事的，一一探询意见。
终于定调。我们要一个小男孩。
毕竟第一款的小男孩实在太符合这本书的感觉。那无助等待的姿势、背后那空阔却一无所知的陌生世界。一个看不清面貌的孩子，正是我们每个人心中对自我的疑惑、不确信。
于是，挑了两款以小男孩为主的设计，战战兢兢请永真就「男孩与书」再修改。我一直拖拖拉拉，不敢打电话，最后只好使出小矮人招数，写信。
不久，永真又寄来三款。
Pic 3-1
非常沈重的书墙。好沈重……
Pic 3-2
非常孤单。很可能埋没在书店的书海中。
Pic 3-3
让我想到斯凡克梅耶的贪吃树。咿！那树怪很恐怖的！
可毕竟又往前走了一步。我们决定选3-2版继续修改（小矮人：虐待啊虐待啊，可怜的美编）。
我说，要有书。永真就给了我书。
Pic 4
我说，好像还是太单薄。大卫踏入的那个世界还要复杂一点。我需要森林、树木，或是藤蔓。
于是，永真给我花草。
Pic 5
我还记得周末晚上在家收信，看到这款封面。第一个念头就是：完了，我惹毛美编了。
可是，不能回头。我还是要改。我说，我要有「异世界与现实交缠不分」的感觉。藤蔓好吗？要让藤蔓缠在小男孩身上。
于是永真给了我藤蔓。
Pic 6
嗯，可这藤蔓似乎太规矩。可以「乱」一点吗？
（以上完全是「得寸进尺」的例子……）
我猜想，脾气坏一点的美编，可能想直接把藤蔓缠到我脖子上了？
改了藤蔓，我又说，少了那本「失物之书」……
于是，封面最后就成了这个样子：
正面
两个月，封面终于定案。敬业又好脾气的永真则继续设计一大堆文宣……
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很多人质疑封面对书籍的销售到底有没有影响。
其实，我没做过统计、没有实际数据佐证，实在说不出答案。
不过，我自己的确会因为封面好看而拿起书来翻翻。
我也喜欢在拿到新书的那一刻，仔细摸摸封面的质感与设计。
希望读者还喜欢这个结果。
而看到这篇的美编，请不要因此而不接我的案子喔（呜呜呜呜）。
＝＝＝＝＝本站公告＝＝＝＝＝
本部落格不代表出版社与设计者，
两位当事者对此事亦已无回应，
但后续回响之中多见「心里一定怎么想」的揣度，
并为双方不平的情绪留言，
故关闭本篇回响机制，特此公告。
2009/9/17
========================（ 注意！）==========================
以下是台湾《失物之书》回顾一文后的回帖及讨论。前半部分颜色字还不在状态，基本处于不明底细的读者写的一些关于书籍封面的看法，后面颜色部分则是许多台湾设计师及相关人士就此书编辑对设计师聶永真的封面修改表达了愤怒，红色加粗部分是原文作者小熊的回复。原文繁体，我也一并转了。（by 【你们的】流明）
========================（ 谢谢注意~）==========================
Posted by book100 at 乐多Roodo! │19:47 │引用(3) │book100读书会
乐多分类：阅读 工具：编辑本文
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引用列表:
（感谢好脾气永真愿意让我写出这篇文章） 行销大人告诉我，要写篇《失物之书》封面演化史。于是我抛开那位就要给老公打得鼻青脸肿的某小姐（详情请见麦田八月新书《伤痕累累…
《失物之书》封面演化史【麦田里的小熊 Amber in the Rye】 at July 11,2007 20:18
前几天从书店大采购买回来的书里面，就包含了这本【失物之书】。从博客来购物网那里拿到的试读本让我自己看到后真是爱不释手，于是决定下次亲自去书店买一本回家来看看。
失物之书幕后制作花絮【- It’s A Wonderful Error -】 at July 13,2007 15:15
回应文章
说真的，我很喜欢这本书的封面设计
你们放在诚品书店的小书签，我看到就觉得爱不释手呢
当下便猜这应该来自聶永真的手笔吧，哈。
Posted by 米雪儿 at July 11,2007 20:15
亲爱的米雪儿：
啊啊，好开心听到你喜欢。
小书签可以尽情拿喔！（欢迎分送亲朋好友）
下周应该会有第三款～
Posted by Amber at July 11,2007 20:33
这篇封面演化史真的要传给众家编辑看看
激励大家
连聂先生的稿子都可以这样要求了……不要担心 要勇敢的去要求
不过也得向您这样有功力 知道往哪方面去改 不能只说 这个不好 换….
结果很赞阿
这书一定会大卖的囉
Posted by zen at July 12,2007 00:24
附带一说
那要不要也说说冻结的香气的封面
那个也很赞耶 我很喜欢
Posted by zen at July 12,2007 00:25
《冻结的香气》真的好棒，我也好喜欢！
（这个可能就要请我们家的娘娘来说了。）
其实，我觉得这次永真没对我翻桌，真的是脾气太好。
如果能在一开始就很明确沟通清楚，也有很多书的封面是一次到位的。
所以我的沟通技巧还要再努力。
所以，所以，看到这篇的美编，请不要拒绝接我的案子喔。 >__<
Posted by Amber at July 12,2007 02:20
看了这个过程~~觉得，现在的读者真是幸福~~但这也说明了台湾出版的进步~~
另人感动!!
Posted by 小麦粒 at July 12,2007 10:00
我一直很喜欢永真设计的风格，想不到他也是这么敬业的人。我也一直想找时间好好读读失物之书，在书店时只有带试读本回去看，感谢小熊将这么珍贵的首页设计过程公开出来。
Posted by 月芙 at July 12,2007 11:38
我也很喜欢这封面，
不过这生成史也太太辛苦了吧！！
Posted by 逸 at July 13,2007 00:20
小的我很好奇
请问设计费是给多少呢
如果以这么辛苦的修改历程
应该10万跑不掉吧
Posted by 小美 at July 13,2007 09:43
虽然不清楚这书的内容,但素我觉得那个中央车站版比藤蔓爬满身的设计来得优说,感觉上会让人想要翻开来看看,到底是什么东东遗失了.
旅行中打开行李箱发现钱包护照不见了,应该会很慌乱无助吧!!
中央车站版比较合书名说.
Posted by 罗嘻 at July 13,2007 10:05
10万。
我想这数字应该不可能啦。
如果是这样，小熊应该就会……..
^^”
Posted by book100 at July 13,2007 11:41
我很喜欢这本的封面，还难得对不起博客来去诚品买精装。封面真的能骗到读者，君看木马的不存在的女儿就唬了很多人。我的偷书贼也是跑去买独家封面版。一本书的封面真的对书影响很大，那只巴别塔之犬我就看了很不爽…
Posted by fun at July 13,2007 15:47
我也比较喜欢1-1，感觉往往设计的第一个版本最直接靠近，然后曲曲折折的修改，但还没看过内容的自己，自然无法了解缠绕小男孩的心意。
但我很好奇的问，编者是希望：”没看过这本书的读者，对于这个封面产生什么感觉而打开它呢？”如果大家的感觉近似于你的期待，这样的封面应该是美编跟编辑所构筑的最好作品吧。
最后，感谢这样的分享过程！
Posted by weit at July 13,2007 19:44
看到fun的文章标题是：失物之书：今年最棒的一本书。(放‧FUN)
我总觉得这样的标题，由普通读者写出来时，都是令人高兴万分。
Posted by book100 at July 13,2007 23:56
把功劳归给你，基本上选书我都会认真买来读。
回到正题，这本书的封面要大力赞一下。
通常麦田的书不是以封面取胜，至少是输木马。
不过看到他们试读本(恨，我没拿到，看到朋友的)，
知道今年试读本行销是市场很大的一块饼。
也做了很大很大的宣传，很努力。
封面，挑的人很用心。我想他有抓出书的味道。
没脸的小男孩是重点，无助、垂头。
背景的衬托啊，我觉得一定和书要有关。
淡淡的书影极好，毕竟失物之书不是强调在书这字。
而是失物，自然比实线、立体的优。
摊开的书本比其他怪东西好。
小男孩是处在书本、故事、童话中啊！
再来一定要是藤蔓，不能是树。
而且要虚、要淡。
因为这象征在书里很重要、很重要。
挑的人有读过书，他很懂，有到味！
那种无形，恐惧的氛围，莫名的植物。
森林就这给人最黑暗的印象，还有碉堡的可怖。
黑和白的话，不晓得，配起来白的和绿字很好。
我喜欢不全是黑的阴森。白色光明，我也爱绿色的字。
很有质感的封面纸。我有拔开过。
精装的书皮质感也好，基调颜色佳。
浅纹很用心。
内容的图翻开也好看。插画的不错。
只是我的明信片寄去很久，都没看到文件夹…
很认真的第一次聊封面耶，因为提封面很气。想起
那个烂宝瓶骗了我一本巴别塔之犬，难看不说。
封面放了狗。结果后来出独家封面却好看多了。
有点觉得这出版社没诚意。第二本又出来要骗钱。
结果还是选了和内容无太大关系的动物鹦鹉，很鸟。
自此之后我逄人便提，真是烂到不行。
重点是好书我就会评好一点，烂书一颗星就嫌多…
Posted by fun at July 14,2007 01:16
路人多嘴回FUN一下
麦田的书不是以封面取胜? 大概吧
因为他们很多人文书 但是 他们很多书都设计的很赞
大概前两年 我看到陆续由王志弘设计的封面令人耳目一新
就知道 出版社在转型了
至于不如木马 巧的很 FUN觉得比较好那几本 都是同样美编设计的
如果说谁不如谁 那也只能说是美编在不同的书上做出不同需求的感觉
木马的书 封面设计好 但却读完有种被骗的感觉(特别是女儿那本 偷书贼还好 但又是纳粹 觉得很腻)
又 我觉得 诚品的偷书贼独家封面延续不存在女儿的调性很明显
那行销考量超过书籍本身的特性 虽然偷书贼是小女孩没错
但是 我比较喜欢一般通路的那个版本
Posted by ZEN at July 14,2007 01:34
嘿嘿，有帮到回应的数量了吧。
对不起，封面和美编不是我在行的。
你说的好看的封面设计作品我都不知道。
不存在的女儿，我没买，因为听评语不好。
所以如果有什么问题，纯属个人意见。
但基于赚钱的立场，我是出版社的话。
有靠封面赚到你我就开心啦，
至少我骗到一本的钱了，
反正评价是读完书之后的事。
不存在的操弄，是今年热门话题。
木马一直打的口号都要当第二本追风筝啊，
而追风筝的好评价无庸置疑。
他们接下来一堆出版计划。
只能用这种行销在吃市场。
对不起，我也不太会行销就是了…
Posted by fun at July 14,2007 01:51
不存在的女儿
的封面的确是不错
内容的话个人觉得算平稳
文笔佳 起伏不大
习惯重口味的人会觉得无聊
我觉得偷书贼
才可怕
正常版和诚品版的
我都很喜欢
当然没有到两种版本都买的地步
Posted by 玥璘 at July 14,2007 21:53
楼上的，发言呈现高度的同质性，真奇怪。
Posted by cormer at July 16,2007 16:51
Dear 小熊：
感觉这个封面真要真要透过妳,才会成为这样的风貌呢,真替妳开心~~~
Posted by WhiteQueen at July 16,2007 21:43
看到这么多的封面
感觉好有趣喔…
不过之前的好像颜色都比较单一
现在的封面尤其是字的颜色有出来
真的很棒^^
封面真的会影响我们对一本书的感觉…
而且在书店中
真的都是看封面来决定要不要拿起这本书来看看..
Posted by doubleC at July 16,2007 22:11
天啊，真是回响热烈啊
小熊啊，你看，我说诚心感动天嘛
你出名囉：)
Posted by 组特祖 at July 16,2007 22:32
To 组特组（？？你赶书赶到改名啦？）
（苦笑）所谓人怕出名熊怕肥。
感谢这边的读者留言，个个都对我手下留情啊，呜呜。
（准备加印好人卡……）
—
（正色貌）
读者若能喜欢《失物之书》目前的样貌，我想，这就是对所有相关工作者的最佳鼓励了。掌声都是属于作者跟美编设计的，感谢他们将想像化为实体，让其他人都能看见。
至于我喔，我比较喜欢安东厅（哈哈哈哈）。
Posted by 小熊 at July 16,2007 23:22
哇 这边的留言专业人士更多囉
Posted by 大味必佳 at July 17,2007 00:59
悲哀啊。真该劝聂永真不要干了，照这篇看来，出版社编辑只是想找人完稿，根本不是想找人设计。如果编辑抱着这种修改的心态，那根本就不相信一开始美编是努力提出他认为最好的设计？还是聂永真一开始也就不相信他提的设计是最好的？还是抱着管他去死，编辑要什么就给什么吧，要藤蔓就给他藤蔓吧？原来文编也是美术总监。
Posted by 拉特 at July 17,2007 15:25
To 拉特：
如果我们真的不尊重设计者，那么永真或其他设计者应该不会愿意接我们的案子吧？但事实上，这些优秀的设计者仍持续与我们合作，也一向合作愉快。说实话，一般书封的设计费较之于唱片、大型广告，真的很少，但是这些设计者愿意拨出宝贵的时间来接案，就我个人、或是麦田的立场与心情，绝不会有不尊重的心情或想法。
这篇文章看起来，好像文编都把美编当工人虐待一样（真是抱歉，拖累了其他同行），可是文字后头其实还有许许多多讨论的过程没有写出来。通常，封面设计都是一次到位（近期如《独角人》、《小岛》、《冻结的香气》、《女人的勋章》……等等），然而，对于《失物之书》这样需要花较大力气着墨的案子，自然免不了要有许多琢磨讨论。或许我文字表达不够好，只是想用比较轻松的笔调，却弄巧成拙，令人误解。但是，若因此断定永真或其他设计者会对自己的作品如此没有坚持，只能任人摆布，实在有点过头了。
至于美编在提案的时候会给几款设计，那真的是要看设计的想法与心情，我感激永真在《失物之书》的案子给了我许多选择，也觉得双方可以就设计互相讨论，是一件很棒的事。小小一张封面所花费的时间与讨论过程，很难以短短的文章讲清楚。而我单纯觉得：能有这么棒的设计者将许多人对书籍内容的想像化为实体，就是最好的结果。
至于读者喜欢哪一款封面？人人各有喜好，不可能令每个人都满意。而我身为编辑，只能就我对书籍的理解，与设计者尽力沟通。
若是读者喜欢，那是最棒的结果。
若是不喜欢，那么我只能期许自己，往后的工作成果，能够令更多人满意。
谨此回覆拉特，与其他关心这个话题的朋友。 
Posted by 小熊 at July 17,2007 17:54
真是一个自以为是的编辑！！每个设计者都要小心酱子的客户啊！！
Posted by 设计公司 at July 18,2007 11:35
哇，听朋友说，聂永真设计《失物之书》时，提了很多款。我终于看到了。
我只能说，这真是「设计」与「编辑」完美合作的案例。
如果说，现在看到的封面，是经过一再的讨论协调，那么，真的达到了最好的效果!很棒!
编辑进步了，有市场观有美感了;聂先生可以一再配合修改，而制作出这样我看了后：「不愧是聂永真的作品」的杰作，真的，大家都不简单!!!给你们拍拍手。
Posted by 有耳无咀 at July 18,2007 17:03
聂永真这次多了这样一个杰作，
首先要感谢的是他个人的敬业精神，
其次，要感谢这位「小熊」。
也许永真没时间看完这本书，
这本书的内容，轻松，也充满很多”寻童话开心”的诡异，
这个封面，是大成功!
但有没有大「年度大书」……内容还不够强吧!!!
Posted by 广东．周 at July 18,2007 17:21
好专业喔，希望小熊也能秉持着「这款也好眼熟」、「好像友社某本英美小说喔」、「不太容易让人亲近」、「这风景似乎太普遍了」的标准，认真要求手下所有作者的文稿，要求作者改改改，不能只有封面好看内容无聊，呵呵，这样就是读者之福了！
或许也应该请编辑写一篇「文稿演变史」？
Posted by 有耳无文 at July 20,2007 03:35
很喜欢最后定案的封面
与先前的封面感觉相较
我觉得活泼多了
有一种更易人的味道
坚持到要最好的
真的很棒
很喜欢《失物之书》
Posted by 1/4 at July 24,2007 12:00
我也是因为封面才选这本的!!!
不然那时是挣扎于这本与木马的新书之中……
失物之书的封面给了我想翻想看的冲动!!!
(内容当然也是无庸置疑的好!!)
这真的是一本很棒的书
不光是作者写的好而已
原来 每个阶段的每个负责的人都很用心呢!!
谢谢你们,让我们今天夏天有这么好看的一本书陪伴
Posted by 宝宝 at July 28,2007 21:27
我也常因为封面买书的说
比方说像是《夏的复制品》诚品版的《砂之器》以及《偷书贼》和《生死疲劳》…..
各位编辑大人的用心，各位读者都看在心~~
请继续加油~~
(那土屋隆夫版的说法真是让我为之绝倒…..)
Posted by 无责任之光 at July 30,2007 14:12
我深切觉得,这篇普遍反映台湾设计的生态,很多邀稿者总是我认为这样,我要那样,而不是跟设计者充分的沟通,这样的情况,如果邀稿者有点品味,还能够接受,不过大部分的情况是,邀稿者对美学呈现是有所偏差的,就这本书的封面来说,最后结果的呈现我反而觉得是不好的,还好邀稿者愿意分享过程,让大家有所比较,我想,若是大多数的人有同样的观感的话,那邀稿者真的要检讨自己的对美学的品味
我想每位设计师当然都不是神圣的,也多半可以接受改稿,只是沟通的过程是很重要,而不再是邀稿者单独的我认为我要的想法,至少这本封面就让人看到了这样的不好实例,又扼杀了一个好的设计师
Posted by 心有戚戚焉 at August 1,2007 23:42
看完此篇文章和此次失物之书
永真设计的所有封面
真心疼永真被这自以为是的编辑给糟蹋了
我和永真合作过好几本书
他总是能恰如其分的表现书的味道
就算是修正 也不会有太大的更动
就我现在做的工作和小熊是一样的来说
编辑一开始就没有沟通清楚
只是在设计者设计出的版面自以为是的减汤加肉
最后决定的这款封面也已失去这本书的味道（整本书我已看过）
真的建议邀稿者若不能加强自己的美学品味
就不要自以为自己坚持到最后而自曝其短。
Posted by 美术主编 at August 9,2007 13:10
看完此篇文章和此次失物之书
永真设计的所有封面
真心疼永真被这自以为是的编辑给糟蹋了
我和永真合作过好几本书
他总是能恰如其分的表现书的味道
就算是修正 也不会有太大的更动
就我现在做的工作和小熊是一样的来说
编辑一开始就没有沟通清楚
只是在设计者设计出的版面自以为是的减汤加肉
最后决定的这款封面也已失去这本书的味道（整本书我已看过）
真的建议邀稿者若不能加强自己的美学品味
就不要自以为自己坚持到最后而自曝其短。
Posted by 美术主编 at August 9,2007 13:10
永真同学
以后不叫你同学了
你是神
鸟事一箩筐也动不了你的肝火
不叫你神该叫你啥
Posted by 献给永真 at August 9,2007 13:42
今年截至今天为止,(翻译小说部分)我买了这些:
1-(当然要先提)失物之书.(平装和精装都买了,其实是为了要康纳利的签名…)
2-偷书贼.
3-不存在的女儿.
4-追风筝的孩子.
5-失窃的孩子.
6-消失的蓝衣女孩.
7-风之影.
8-美人鱼的椅子.
7-德语课.
8-失物招领处.
9-大象的眼泪.
10-奇想之年.
11-巴别塔之犬.
12-喀布尔的书商和他的女人.
13.蝉时雨.
14-黑塔1+2.
内容不讨论,就封面来说,lulu觉得(不存在的女儿)第一眼看最美,(偷书贼)最有味道,(德语课)清爽,(蝉时雨)和风味十足,不得不说(失物之书)封面比内文好,感觉有太多故事题材加入其中,原创性低,倒是康纳利先生现场的谈话精彩多了…
其他如:(奇想之年)一片灰灰的天,了无新意,可惜!(喀布尔的书商和他的女人)乍看像随便剪一张纸贴上去的!(大象的眼泪)博客来的独家封面比原来的封面美多了.(美人鱼的椅子)封面感觉莫名其妙!
anyway~(失物之书)我买了两本啊…
Posted by 买书买到滨临破产的 Lulu at August 9,2007 21:01
聂永真
你这每一本都应该跟他收钱
因为他拿你的过程
又在消费了一次
看看还能在被扒几层皮
敬业又好脾气的永真
你们出版社可以要求
只是你们有没有本钱
去要求别人
还是在拨靴？
你要屎 他也真的可以给你一驮屎
这篇继续传阿
传到越多设计的手上
越多设计就会越不接你们这一家的书
我们要的只是尊重
而不是赤裸裸的被你们
拿来行销
低级
Posted by 设计独立联盟 at August 11,2007 23:46
看最后几款后.看来设计真的生气了.哈!
Posted by 大头钦 at September 14,2007 15:58
可怜啊~
一开始的几款都是美的,
改到最后你最满意的是最丑的,
我摸着良心说的!
我看不到任何的尊重,
可悲的台湾设计界,
什么都要听客户的,
往往客户自认好的美感都是没有程度可言的…
Posted by 路人 at September 17,2007 18:13
尽管你做任何解释说明你们是尊重设计的,
但仍掩盖不了最终定案设计是最丑的事实。
而这一切是你一手造成的!!
Posted by 路人继续 at September 17,2007 18:20
说真的，我不知道这封面究竟能表达出多少封面的意思，和聂永真发自内心的创意。
一开始几轮的提案，有几款是很符合书中的意思啊!!根本是你们专门在处理文字的人一开始就没把故事表答清楚给聂永真吧?好好一个得过金蝶奖的设计师就这样给你们糟蹋了，还在洋洋得意地夸赞聂永真很敬业又脾气好。
看了这篇的文编大概已经觉得全天下的美编都跟聂永真一样脾气好到做10来款封面以上…。
这封面真的是书里的东西吗?还是你们高兴要有牛肉所以要美编给你们牛肉?
Posted by 已经在读失物之书的设计 at September 18,2007 16:23
在此还是要表达个人的不满
第一，既然是文编的话，请好好发挥你的文采，你自己也说了其实不只是简单请美编怎么画~还有繁复的讨论过程，那就不要写成这样”藤蔓就给藤蔓”让人感到很不爽。
第二，你说你们尊重设计，但就这样的行为(至少你的文字给人的感觉)你们只把美编当作是个高级劳工而不是设计师。
Posted by 路人癸 at September 26,2007 11:42
傻子一样，这演化史真是越改越丑陋
吃牛肉不知道牛肉怎么来的一样
原来坊间的书原本都比较好看噎
麦田….我还买过他们家的书噎….冏….
Posted by 阿毛 at November 10,2007 21:03
看完只有难过！（先不讲你的字里行间默默透露出那种刻意装作谦虚的炫耀，毕竟光有文字没有语气容易使人误会。）也许今天你认为你是在精挑细选为品质把关。但你真的觉得你的美学涵养会比一个把心力都全神投注在这上面学习.磨练的人还要好？这个也都见仁见智，前面几位留言者有批评但也有说喜欢的。我也觉得不喜欢你的结果，但好看其实不代表就好卖，因为不是每个消费者都受过美学欣赏的训练。所以站在行销的立场来看就不能怪你。毕竟你是要卖钱而不是要造就艺术品。但是，请注意。你说尊重聂先生，在哪里？我看不见所谓的沟通在哪里？我都不知道原来所谓沟通是单向的你说他就一定要接收。你问过他意见没有？什么图摆在哪会呈现什么感觉？这些你有跟他讨论吗？讨论不是指你直接下达命令。
你应该了解吧？前面有人说要勇敢要求还有说出版社进步了？当然设计师不是神不可违抗。但是通常所谓的要求，是你们认知的好。
一个读过设计心理学等等学问的人，他会比你不懂哪边要有什么会比较好？实在很可悲，设计师这种东西吸收一堆似乎不值一提的学问，然后为了生存那就把它当废物般的丢弃吧～。既然有些人对自己不需磨练与学习就与生俱来的独到品味深具信心，那么以后设计师就都去开软体教学补习班好了，来教你绘图软体让你好好发挥你的天份吧！不然更惨就只能当美工了。这位小熊说如果断定永真或其他设计者会对自己的作品如此没有坚持，只能任人摆布，实在有点过头了。老实讲，我看到藤蔓时在电脑前笑了10秒。如果你了解我在笑什么，那么今天我就不会在这边打这些文字了。
Posted by 唉 at December 12,2007 15:50
不是说没有坚持，但有没有听过什么叫对牛弹琴？
Posted by 唉 at December 12,2007 15:54
最后定稿的封面，究竟是谁”设计”出来的???
最近这几年逛书局，觉台湾出版界书的封面和版面编排有在进步，
就像楼上很多人提到的，不存在的女儿、偷书贼等…
(不过我可以说也有一种急速蔓延的某种风格现象吗? 或者也意味着行销性? 急速发展的某种风格？
恕我可形容为蛋塔泡沫或是政府一窝蜂举办疲劳轰炸的地方艺术节效应?)
(也曾经听过出版社在出书的时候，封面需要拿去给诚X书店
“过稿”，内容大抵是「像这样的封面，如果不改，我们顶多只进XX千本啦！」
碍于销售量的高阶主管，立即传令内部设计师熬夜也要改版赶出来！
并且，非常赶~~~给我赶~~~~赶赶赶！赶赶赶！)
当时听到这样一则典故，也同身为设计的我，可是十分震惊！
(可能涉世未身吧，也许打混多年的人会说「不都是这样」)
一个受尊敬的设计师? 美工? 劳工?
(以上文字纯属个人抒发，无意冒犯或影射，对号入座不清场)
Posted by 高级电脑苦力劳工 at April 24,2008 00:49
我所知道的，是通路看了某封面，然后说”这样不够跳”。他们不接受。然后翻盘重做，直到出版社和通路满意为止…
究竟，书的封面是为了迎合通路进货还是消费者？封面美或不美的主观印象或许影响人购书的欲望，但那是关键吗？
究竟，消费者真的想”读”这本书吗？这才是重点吧？否则我认为出版社只是压榨设计师和美编，为了自以为好看的封面，来骗消费者去买而已。
Posted by 无力的高级美工 at June 5,2008 23:30
我喜欢2-1的封面
最后一个的藤蔓有些多余
无论如何
非常敬佩设计师的耐心
Posted by 看书人 at July 2,2008 09:56
我最近在做一本日本平面设计师的书，里面提到「人」最优先、「顾客永远是对的」。设计者有的强项是美感，可是委托人所有的要求则是以市场为出发，也就是他们观察到的顾客喜好。而身为一个编辑所能做的，就是找到一个有美感、可以沟通的设计，做出满足市场的美的东西。
就我自己跟美编合作的经验，很多美编就是第一款被嫌弃后就自暴自弃开始乱做，出版社要求什么就给什么，然后还大发脾气觉得不被尊重。如果你比编辑跟出版社更了解市场，就用你的视觉打败所有人，让人觉得你设计的东西既有美感又有市场，否则说实在的，你就去立志当伟大的创作家，没人感动你的画、你的设计，一卖就几十几百万，何必赚这点小钱？
有时候改美编的东西也改得我很良心不安，因为你也认同第一款是最好的，不过第一，这是书，编辑本来就有诠释权（有时是公司的诠释权，还不是编辑能坚持的），除非美编也全看完，否则就是只管视觉呈现，而且是主观的视觉呈现。
所以请这些愤愤不平的美编们理性的思考一下好吗？编辑只是在做她该做的事，公司只是想卖书，市场说真的也是反映某种过时的美感，在抱怨不被重视、被糟蹋的同时，你难道不曾跟朋友说：＂管他的，出版社要黄色我就给他黄色，管他们去死！＂当你自己先放弃对每一款设计的坚持与用心，就没资格责备别人对自己工作的坚持与用心。
Posted by Liz at August 15,2008 15:17
作为一个也和聂永真合作过的出版同业，看了这篇真是为聂永真的才华与敬业态度感动万分，我想我会继续把握每一次与他合作的机会。
（但我不会这样虐待他….）
Posted by 阿嘻 at August 18,2008 20:20
这篇是我朋友传给我看的
其实做小设计被这样要求改稿
甚至最后变成只是当客户的完稿机器是很常见的
我之前做博X来的东西也是这样
只是没想到大设计聂先生也要这么累啊 XD
其实我觉得一系列看下来
很明显最后设计师已经失去设计的手感
通常设计的前几款一定都是比较好的
像这种一改再改的 最后的东西虽然好像通过了
但是却没有一开始的好
这款书我也觉得如此
如果在一开始就能够清楚告知想要的方向
把所有的可能性都讨论出来
就不需要两边都这么麻烦的你来我往
Posted by Bao at March 3,2009 18:47
看到对岸人民出版社的版本…
台版真的丑死了…
Posted by sign at May 11,2009 08:31
个人觉得1-2/2-1最有感觉，后面的藤蔓让我瞬间将网址PO给一串人….原本以为只有小设计小美编小美工们才会遇上输入指令完成作品的窘境，原来聂大师也仍然在遭受这样的拖磨呀….无奈无奈，也许当年设计学程漏掉的那门课就叫做设计人的坚持吧，(或者是-进入职场机器化学程也很贴切)
Posted by Tapir at May 11,2009 18:20
在台湾设计的稿子几乎都是”越改越烂”，因为永远改稿的都是嘴巴说尊重设计师但潜意识里自己觉得自己最有美感的人，因为这些连基本美感都没有的外行人不加强自己的美感只会要求专业设计师来”降低”格调改到这种层级，然后这一伙没水准的”专家”在来说设计的”真好”，却不知他们这是再一次的”强奸”设计。 为什么看日本的作品大家会觉得好，那是因为日本的人”美术”水平够，不会因为自己水准不够就马上要求设计改稿，所以日本就算是路边小店他也不会要求要有家乐福稿子出现，因为他们尊重”专业”，这是台湾一直都缺乏的，所以我不懂 此篇作者对自己”改”的成果有什么好欣喜的，如果自觉自己喜欢的才是有”美感”，那要不要word自己开开来做做看?????
Posted by MT at May 12,2009 16:40
自以为是~还说得好像头头是道!
台湾设计领域的专业就是被你们这种自以为很懂的人搞砸的
另外那位Liz你也不是美编，请不要为你心里找美编麻烦的不安找藉口，说的理直气壮还不是讲给自己心安的!
Posted by Jo at May 15,2009 23:29
…
设计师跟美编是完全不一样的，称一位设计师为美编，实在…厄….我想设计师心里应该是很不高兴的吧。
Posted by 阿滋 at June 3,2009 21:04
愈改愈丑。
看到书封设计这样被糟蹋心好痛！
台湾的设计要到什么时候才会被尊重。
为什么德国有包浩斯有乌尔姆可以引以为傲，日本有原研哉有福田繁雄他们备受尊敬，台湾的年轻设计师好不容易出了一位聂永真确是遭受这样的对待??
学过设计的人都知道最后定案的封面是最丑的。
没学过设计的人往往对”美”自有一套说法，还能侃侃而谈，但是许多真正在设计领域学习的人，其实经常心虚的不敢批判，因为我们自己知道自己有多么地不足，尤其是面对这些杰出的前辈们。
我相信，他之所以是许多设计人口中经常在复诵的”聂永真”，他的专业度绝对是无庸置疑的，以及这么多年来从事设计所累积的美感，我想他在每个细节的掌握上绝对是再三斟酌过的。
你这样的改法，教他这样一位专业的设计师情何以堪?
诚挚地表达一个喜爱设计的人之心痛与悲哀
Posted by 看到设计这样被糟蹋心好痛 at August 20,2009 16:30
在台湾只要是设计人都会遇到这样的状况..
客户告诉你一些感觉之后就开始去发想…
最常出现的状况是讲一个感觉去更改…(权威感..梦幻..森林..不够跳)
常常就会有问题发生
因为他根本不知道他要的东西..
最后就改出个四不像
我只能说聂先生最喜欢的一定不是最后一款..
Posted by 蜜斯凡德罗 at September 3,2009 14:49
最后的定案有够丑。不知道责编在得意洋洋些什么？得意「大名鼎鼎的永真还不是被我凹成这样」？
Posted by WTF at September 13,2009 15:32
越改越丑 真可悲
最后几个感觉都是随便敷衍做的
台湾的环境就是这样
随便做的东西 客户最爱
最没美感又烂的东西 客户最爱
继续乱搞吧 你们这些自以为是的业主
Posted by ken at September 13,2009 21:25
封面的确很重要~我第一次看到这本书时
我真的是爱死这个封面了
孤独的小男孩.书及藤蔓 给人神秘的感觉
好想知道内容到底在说什么?
看完整本书之后 内容给人的省思和意义 很值得深入探讨
而针对书名及封面的命名及设计 确实 为这本书都加分不少
Posted by 夏薇亚 at September 13,2009 23:44
虽然最早几款也有些问题
但最后几款真的是匠气味超重
对我来说，这种藤蔓实在非常的做作
不过出钱的是老大，算了
Posted by Apple at September 14,2009 00:40
心有戚戚焉…看到最后我笑了!
这篇实在很容易引起设计师的共鸣(共愤)了
看过一句话，
如果你的父母、朋友大家都喜欢你的作品，那只不过表示你打了张安全牌。
单看最终封面版本，并没什么不好，是很常见会被客户喜欢的一种设计。
的确非常安全。
但全部设计过程摊出来后，好像911内幕事实真相一样，太令人不可置信了!!
也完全真实呈现台湾的设计环境，的确像这样，被反覆混合搓揉制造
设计师还是有责任要求客户。
自己的习惯，大约耳提面命三次，「这样改好吗」「这样做不好看喔」「这样真的会变很丑喔」
在还能展握美感的范围内，做最后的坚持，用尽方式说服客户，但往往敌不过客户的打死不从就是了
于是想掐死的孩子又生了一个
在台湾的设计环境，这样的机率真的蛮高的……
「嗯…A款的颜色＋B款的字体，嗯…不然再给我三款好吗…」
哈……饶了我们吧!
Posted by A Designer at September 14,2009 10:45
看到这篇文章，感觉文编欠缺成熟，也没有能力传递正确的讯息给设计，即使有幸搭配到高手，最后只能产出差强人意的成品。
最不应该的是重覆消费永贞，有时间批评他的作品，不如反省一下自己，和增加一些美术水准。
Posted by 阿凯 at September 14,2009 11:57
最终版封面好丑!!!!
Posted by 路人喜欢2-1,不然3-2的干脆也很好 at September 14,2009 13:47
请问，版主是故意外行炒作话题的吗？
Posted by Dawa at September 14,2009 13:50
「我说，要有书。永真就给了我书。」
「于是，永真给我花草。」
「藤蔓好吗？要让藤蔓缠在小男孩身上。」
「改了藤蔓，我又说，少了那本「失物之书」…… 」
意见那么多不会自己用image bank然后copy paste喔？还要设计师干嘛？
还「给我花草」哩，妳花痴喔！？
Posted by jojo at September 14,2009 16:26
很典型的“没想法又想控制人症候群“
我喜欢皮箱
Posted by 赛 at September 14,2009 17:19
这让我想到今年买的某本翻译书
封面设计很素雅很吸引人
大陆译者的翻译却一塌糊涂
编辑显然也没有发现翻译上的错误和错字
我见过一些很优秀的文编
他们都很认真地提出想法
才和美编沟通
文中随便抛出的种种要求
真是前所未闻
建议格主多多训练编辑能力
加油 好吗？(一时只能用老梗…..表达我的惊吓)
Posted by 真是奇文 at September 14,2009 19:16
最后一版很明显的是在敷衍编辑，交差了事！编辑居然还这么得意….噗…
Posted by 噗 at September 14,2009 20:18
…嗯…
虽然我也很认同设计原来的第一个概念呈现总是最好的.
但根据以往和设计师合作的经验…
设计师好像都说不得的耶…
好像只要稍微改一点小地方,就彷彿毁了他们的自尊…
搞的我有点害怕和设计师沟通了说…
Posted by 布瓜 at September 14,2009 22:51
我觉得第一款最美!!放在架上会有让人想拿的冲动!!!
但其实你也不知道你要什么吧!!不然那还需要跟大家讨论意思!!一开始给的方向就不对,才会让第一款跟最后的完稿完全不同样子!!!!果然付钱的就是老大!!
Posted by IYU at September 15,2009 12:03
害怕沟通，结果就是做出不像样的稿子。
一再重复地修改只是证明编辑没有能力把话说清楚，
设计是狠乐意和文案一起讨论发想的，请不要再把台湾的设计环境扭曲成我们都是一群可怕的、没有商量余地怪物了！谢谢！
Posted by EBI at September 15,2009 12:03
聂永真根本就是你的神了，
你说要什么就给你什么。
但这本书最后的成果最好看的是他排的字，
其他的有眼睛的人都知道第一版好看很多！
如果当初你有好好沟通就不会让设计做出这么多版本，
这说到底根本就是你的问题。
ps：而且不要再跟人家装熟叫人家永真了！
Posted by sky at September 15,2009 12:07
希望编辑能信任设计师的美感而不是自己的。
Posted by A at September 15,2009 12:19
如果编辑老是看到一个小点就开始联想无聊的事情
就都给编辑做就好了，以后也不需要找设计。
看完整篇完全没有感觉到什么是「尊重专业」
只觉得这年头每个人都觉得自己会做设计
然后把设计人当作完稿工具。
Posted by ivan at September 15,2009 12:34
若是你要发这案子给知名的设计师做的时候，通常在国际上的做法，是因为你事先就知道这设计师的风格，而全权交给他去发想，而不是好比你找来原研哉设计这封面，却讲了一堆你的想法给他去受限，你要的不就是他个人风格的原创来替你的案子加分吗？你这样的案子跟发给一个刚毕业的设计系学生，由你在一旁下指导棋，来指导他怎样做出你脑中的封面，任何会用photoshop & illustrator的人都可以帮你完成，你还沾沾自喜你跟大师合作，你根本不配跟他合作，你算哪一个咖啊！！！
Posted by 打击设计界不法败类 at September 15,2009 12:47
整篇看下来，我反而觉得最后定版的并没有刚开始有质感
我真的很怀疑这位编辑所谓的沟通到底是什么
“我说，要有书。永真就给了我书。”
这根本是指令而不是方向
只是依着设计所给的再挑毛病
最后，我真的很敬配永真的专业及很好的服务态度
Posted by one at September 15,2009 13:49
恩..我是一个小小的平面设计师。
文章看完我也是很难过..当初的设计被改的乱七八糟。
跟当初要传达的意思完全不同。
不过，回头一想。这不就是「商业设计」该有的态度吗？
若能保有自我的风格，又能符合(给钱)老板的要求。
何乐不为？
不然设计师大可转行去做「纯美术」！完全不需受他人影响、也无关自我肚皮及利益。
做自己爽的东西就好了吧！
制作过程我们只看到编辑的改稿、要求。没有听到设计师的想法。
的确，有很多自以为很有美感的老板会干涉设计..
我自己也很讨厌「自以为」的老板..
在「谈价码」的过程中，收费合理可以符合制作时间及成本，又合算(时间、钱)、双赢(大出版社+增加经历)的案子下..
「不接这个案子吗？？？」
如果我们一昧的做自己要的东西！而没有听到业主的需求..
这样我们还是「商业设计」师吗？
虽然讲的很向钱看..
不然，我们商业设计师是要拿什么吃？
***总是会碰上愿意尊重我们的人阿～
***碰上自以为有品味的改改改，也只能摸摸鼻子改啦～
Posted by Riya* at September 15,2009 15:04
私密回应
Posted at September 15,2009 15:13
纯以一个消费者而言，初稿设计的封面(ex:1-1 2-1..)我绝对会想拿起来一探究竟，毕竟引起注意的封面是购买欲的第一选择~没想到最终版居然是长成那种从书架掉下来会让人假装视而不见踩过去的样子…设计者可怜书也很可怜…,难道是这本书的作者不想太畅销吗?
我对设计不甚精深,但至少也懂得一点点审美观,我想只要是没脑残眼抽筋的人,大致都会选择最终版以外的封面吧,博客来公司做到那么大,连个”专业”的审美人员都请不起吗??
Posted by 路贱不平 at September 15,2009 15:14
这美术好可怜被这样玩.
明明功力不错的.
Posted by 什么鬼 at September 15,2009 15:32
我没学过设计，只是一名消费者
不过我觉得一开始4款很匠气，
诚如元PO所说，很像现在书店其他的很多本书。
完全没听过本书大名，只是逛书店的话，
会让我想拿起来翻、可能会买的就是最后一款。
我也不了解设计界，所以得过什么奖对我来说根本无足轻重，至少不会比诺贝尔医学奖或研发出HINI疫苗直接让我受惠。
但是如果只是得过一个奖，他的作品就不能改、不能被批判，那史蒂芬史匹柏和其他很多的导演，就不会拿到很糟的影评了。
更遑论是否有人会只是因为”这本书的封面是一个得过奖的设计家设计的”，就去买这本书？
如有冒犯那真是不好意思啦~楼上诸位很有才华的设计者，
毕竟梵谷也是死后才出名的，生前根本没人懂他。而我坦承我也没有那种伯乐般的慧眼。
Posted by 读者 at September 15,2009 15:33
整篇我只看到很专业的美术跟很不专业的编辑
Posted by 惨 at September 15,2009 15:42
最后真的看得出美术不高兴了.
妳要藤蔓,
她给你材质库的现成藤蔓贴上去.
这种现成的材质直接放颇丑的说…
然后你嫌不够乱,
他也没调的比较乱啊,
就调个透明度就给你了.
然后最后这样的版本 过了(老实说我觉得有点好笑)
光后面这些调整动作,
我很肯定设计师很不耐烦了.
最后想说的是,
编辑请先搞清楚自己要的是什么吧.
Posted by 看不过去的路人 at September 15,2009 16:37
说真的 封面被改成这样 实在是让人很无言以对
我实在想不出来这个主题 被改成这样后 真的有比较呼应吗
…………….
唉 真的想说 怎么好好的设计会被改成这样!!
Posted by Peggy at September 15,2009 17:22
最后版本的封底其实比封面好看= =
Posted by kai at September 15,2009 19:00
这篇文章看完的感觉实在不怎么舒服，个人也觉得是专业的美术设计遇到不专业的编辑，这些沟通过程其实只是凸显了编辑不知道自己该如何沟通跟表达自己的意见，不然我想一个过程很谨慎小心的状态下，应该很难看到很多请设计不要生气不要想揍我或是捏死我这一类的字眼吧….
Posted by 曾经从事设计业的路人 at September 15,2009 20:47
其实好不好看不是重点，或许编辑最后调整出来的比较符合一般市场口味
我比较在意的是…以一般常理来说，应该是由文编提供方向、设计师则照着这个方向激荡出好的画面
整篇文看下来，很明显的是设计师提出画面，来激荡出文编的方向….
这样的方法不但浪费钱(大改应该有加收不少吧…算下来有七款了)、也浪费时间精神
其实中间修改了几次不是重点，反正钱给的够多，要改一百次我想设计师也愿意，最后到底有没有比最初好看也不是重点
重点是在这样的过程中，这位设计师根本不叫做”设计师”，而已经沦为”完稿工读生”
Posted by S at September 15,2009 23:46
我觉得更机车的是
文编一直坳美编就算了
反正一本书的策划过程中
本来就有很多不为人知的辛酸
但机车的是书出都出了
文编还沾沾自喜
觉得连有名的设计师都可以这样被我坳
然后把这个凌迟设计师的过程
当成这本书的「卖点」
洋洋得意在这边昭告大众
同为出版人（我在业界十年了）
真是瞧不起这种心态
不但践踏美术设计者的尊严
也把自己这个职业的格调降低
让所有从事文编工作的人蒙羞
可耻！真应该出面道歉！
Posted by 出版界老兵 at September 16,2009 02:43
我只看到一个本来没什么想法的『文编』，
压榨一个辛苦设计的脑汁，最后又自以为是的把功劳归到自己身上的无耻文章。
如果版大真的以为自己真的那么有想法，拜托在一开始就把理念跟设计因素沟通好；我也觉得一切情形，觉得正如楼上S大说的『整篇文看下来，很明显的是设计师提出画面，来激荡出文编的方向….』不要明明自己也不知道自己要的是什么，真不知道贴这篇出来的意义是什么？只能说可悲。
Posted by 好好笑 at September 16,2009 08:27
这篇报导里有谈到此事件
http://udn.com/NEWS/READING/REA8/5132217.shtml
Posted by kai at September 16,2009 12:22
每各职位都有自己的视角. 每各专案总有不同的阻碍
大家都有理无关谁对错
但明显..你的文字太过戏谑.
不可取
Posted by DDS at September 16,2009 13:21
每各职位都有自己的视角. 每各专案总有不同的阻碍
大家都有理无关谁对错
但明显..你的文字太过戏谑.
不可取
Posted by DDS at September 16,2009 13:22
1-1最好看。
但过程真是有辱设计人，替聂永真感到不值。
请尊重设计好吗。这么行每个都意见自己来不就得了。
Posted by kasa at September 16,2009 13:58
========================（ 注意！）==========================
下面是关于《失物之书》封面的一些八卦和周边……
《我烧了大文豪的家》
台版《失物之书》封面
这小男孩真是啥事都干净了啊……
- 《The book of lost things》
- 《The book of lost things》
» Filed Under 艺术
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九月 7th, 2011 at 00:52
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九月 7th, 2011 at 02:16
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九月 7th, 2011 at 16:36
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九月 8th, 2011 at 00:29
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九月 8th, 2011 at 03:26
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九月 9th, 2011 at 03:33
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九月 9th, 2011 at 14:12
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九月 10th, 2011 at 12:04
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九月 11th, 2011 at 17:43
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九月 11th, 2011 at 17:53
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九月 11th, 2011 at 18:13
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九月 11th, 2011 at 19:28
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九月 11th, 2011 at 19:29
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九月 11th, 2011 at 22:26
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九月 12th, 2011 at 03:07
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九月 12th, 2011 at 04:07
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九月 12th, 2011 at 08:53
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九月 12th, 2011 at 20:20
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九月 13th, 2011 at 04:03
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九月 14th, 2011 at 01:21
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九月 14th, 2011 at 03:09
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九月 15th, 2011 at 21:39
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九月 16th, 2011 at 07:25
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九月 16th, 2011 at 07:39
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九月 16th, 2011 at 09:45
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九月 16th, 2011 at 19:13
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九月 16th, 2011 at 21:28
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九月 17th, 2011 at 19:00
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九月 17th, 2011 at 22:25
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九月 18th, 2011 at 00:42
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九月 18th, 2011 at 06:59
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九月 18th, 2011 at 09:43
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九月 18th, 2011 at 11:40
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九月 18th, 2011 at 20:04
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九月 18th, 2011 at 21:37
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九月 19th, 2011 at 03:33
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九月 19th, 2011 at 10:55
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九月 20th, 2011 at 07:39
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九月 20th, 2011 at 11:55
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九月 20th, 2011 at 12:48
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九月 20th, 2011 at 14:40
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九月 20th, 2011 at 16:33
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九月 20th, 2011 at 19:22
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九月 20th, 2011 at 19:54
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九月 20th, 2011 at 20:28
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九月 20th, 2011 at 21:05
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九月 22nd, 2011 at 08:42
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九月 22nd, 2011 at 09:09
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九月 22nd, 2011 at 10:17
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九月 22nd, 2011 at 10:39
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九月 22nd, 2011 at 11:54
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九月 22nd, 2011 at 13:38
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九月 22nd, 2011 at 19:47
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九月 22nd, 2011 at 20:34
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九月 22nd, 2011 at 21:10
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九月 22nd, 2011 at 21:26
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九月 22nd, 2011 at 21:27
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九月 23rd, 2011 at 04:35
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九月 23rd, 2011 at 05:08
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九月 23rd, 2011 at 07:28
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九月 23rd, 2011 at 18:10
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九月 24th, 2011 at 04:30
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三月 25th, 2012 at 10:16
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